81 | The Road to Recovery with | Mark Manderson

Healing isn’t about white-knuckling through cravings; it’s about building a life so meaningful that sedation stops making sense. With Mark Manderson of Pacific Shores, we go deep into what modern recovery really looks like: fewer labels, more neuroscience, and a practical blueprint for rewiring the brain. Mark opens up about the childhood moment that set him on this path and how today’s landscape has shifted, with more potent drugs, higher stakes, and better tools than ever to counter them.

We unpack how families can help without enabling, why consequences plus compassion is a powerful combo, and what actually works after detox. Mark explains the “core lie” that often sits beneath compulsive behavior and how trauma-informed therapy, movement, sunlight, and solitude can change brain chemistry and mood regulation. He reframes pain as feedback that points to purpose and shows how steady, small habits can create a resilient life you don’t want to escape.

There’s also a surprising tech ally in the mix: AI. Mark shares a free prompt that helps people identify triggers, challenge unhelpful stories, and spot relapse patterns before they gain steam. It’s not a replacement for therapy, but it’s a 24/7 mirror that makes hidden thinking visible. The takeaway is liberating: you don’t need rock bottom to start, and you don’t have to go it alone. Replace shame with curiosity, set loving boundaries, and upgrade your inner “software” so the future has room to grow.

If this conversation helped you, tap follow, share it with someone who needs hope today, and leave a quick review so more people can find it. Your story might be the nudge someone else needs to begin.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Mark’s Mission
• 1:16 Breaking Stigma And Brain Science
• 2:52 Childhood Trauma That Sparked A Calling
• 4:55 Today’s Drug Risks And New Tools
• 6:11 Families, Boundaries, And Consequences
• 8:01 Programs, Aftercare, And Daily Maintenance
• 9:47 Trauma Work And Rewriting Stories
• 12:02 AI As A Mirror For Triggers
• 14:02 Emotional Skills: Feel To Heal
• 17:00 Failure As Feedback And Growth
• 19:52 Upgrading Your Inner Software
• 22:17 Holistic Care And Five Freedoms
• 24:52 Final Advice: Ditch Guilt And Shame
• 27:12 Resources, Crisis Work, And Hope
• 28:39 Closing And Listener Actions

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

You're listening to the Off Balance Podcast, where faith, family, and business collide. Hosted by Brooke Stemming, Doctor of Business Administration, Business Coach, and Resilience Expert. Each episode features real-life conversations to help entrepreneurs like you build resilience and lead with confidence.

SPEAKER_00: 0:32

Welcome back to Off Balance. I'm your host, Dr. Brooks. Today on Off Balance, we're diving into the heart of healing and what it truly means to recover, rebuild, and rediscover purpose. My guest is Mark Manderson, also known as Junior. He oversees daily operations at Pacific Shores, a recovery community transforming lives through holistic care. In this conversation, we'll discuss leadership, transformation, and the power of building a recovery process that restores individuals and their families. Mark, welcome to Off Balance.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04

Thank you so much for having me on, Doctor. I've been looking forward to this to see how we can educate more people to the path of healing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11

Thank you so much for joining. Can you share with listeners who you are and what it is that you do?

SPEAKER_02: 1:16

Sure. My name is Mark Manderson, born and raised over here in sunny Orange County, California. And 25 years ago, we started this journey of wanting to help people heal from mental health and addiction. And 25 years later, we're still here, still learning, still helping people heal. And now it's kind of changed to really wanting to just remove the stigma that we've seen change over the years that mental health affects so many people. It doesn't mean you're broken. It doesn't mean life isn't going anywhere. It means let's become more aware of what's going on, what caused this, and what we can do to change and heal the brain.

SPEAKER_00: 1:50

So you've been in this profession for over 25 years. What are some of the common misconceptions that you see as it relates to mental health?

SPEAKER_02: 1:57

I was actually just having this conversation at lunch today was a lot of there's still a stigma around thinking that addiction or mental health issues only affect a certain demographic. It's actually one of the only most non-biased issues we've seen in life that it will attack a homeless person just as a doctor, a lawyer, a congressman or woman, it really looks like so many different things to so many different people. And by understanding the way the brain chemistry works, the way that we look to sedate just to survive versus what it looks like to heal and thrive, there's so many different aspects to it. And so that's really what we want to help educate people on is if life isn't the way that you think it should be, and you are finding you falling back into some sedation patterns just to survive, that it doesn't mean something's necessarily wrong with you. It just means maybe you're not aware of what you can do to begin to again heal the brain and have a complete different life.

SPEAKER_00: 2:52

And was there a particular moment in your life that you into your path that you're on now?

SPEAKER_02: 2:58

Yeah, but I didn't recognize it at the time. So when I was eight, it was my mom, my sister, and me. We lived in a little house. And my aunt, who was the fun, outspoken, the kid at heart, we loved hanging out with her. She had actually just gotten kicked out of rehab, and rehab back in the 80s looked way different than it does now. So my mom had her come live with us, and I had bunk beds in my room. So, like I was the cool one that got Aunt Steffi as the roommate. I just remember one day I walked in and she was lying on the floor and there were pills everywhere. As I went over at eight years old, I started to rock her and she wasn't responding. I didn't know what was wrong. I went and grabbed my mom, but at eight years old, I would witness drugs and an overdose. And so I had no idea. Now, this didn't come up until decades later of therapy that this repressed memory came up and it actually planted the seed of really wanting individuals to know that it didn't have to end this way. We didn't have the education or the resources. Back then, we thought rehab, fixed, came back, whatever that looked like, by reliving that story and understanding that I had mislabeled that traumatic experience of so many areas of my life that I wasn't living where I wanted to. We tend to blame things in life or we carry the guilt and the shame. And that's what gets in the way. That was where I started to understand. I'm like, oh my gosh, I we don't have to live this way. If we had a different education, if we just knew what we could do to help, not to enable to actually help her, things could have wound up different. So that's what started that back in 2000 when we first launched. And then over the years, it just changed into as we got more scientific backed evidence and more holistic approaches, Western and Eastern, and combining those, we just started seeing there's so many different aspects out there that you can find a way that works for any type of person.

SPEAKER_00: 4:42

That does make sense. And I can imagine you've been in this industry for 25 years. What have you witnessed in this industry that you feel is helping people versus the things that they probably didn't have back in the 80s?

SPEAKER_02: 4:55

Yeah, well, drugs are a lot more potent than they used to be. One of the areas we look at is emotional maturity. And how to become more mature with reaction versus response and response versus reaction. The issue is back in the early 2000s, if a person was struggling, they typically had multiple attempts to try to get sober because things weren't so potent. And then that the hero movement, and then now the fentanyl movement, we're seeing so many different things where there's people that will go out and make one, one poor choice, and you can't rebound back. So really the the risk is so much higher and the stakes are so much higher that that is something that that is on the negative side where science is really caught up, and so many pharmaceuticals are created or opioids in a in basically like a chemical lab that they're just getting out there that is so potent. So that's on the negative side. On the positive side, more and more studies continue to come out at the damage that people used to think natural drugs such as marijuana, alcohol is really damaging. And then also the scientific evidence that states there's different ways to actually retrain or rewire the brain and it works. It doesn't have to be you're stuck on medication for the rest of your life, or you have to go to two or three meetings every single day for the rest of your life. There's so many different aspects and avenues that a person can use nowadays to actually heal.

SPEAKER_00: 6:11

So if someone's listening and they may have addiction of their own or they have someone in their family that's really struggling, but the resistance is there, what is one step that they can take to try to encourage that person to get the help that they need?

SPEAKER_02: 6:24

Well, the resistance is normal, right? If I have some form of trauma, either conscious or unconscious, that I continue to take with me, and I found a vehicle that works exceptionally well, like just absolutely incredible at numbing out the things I don't want to feel. So it takes care of the pain part of the brain, makes me feel incredibly pleasurable. It is so dang difficult to stop. So by understanding the brain chemistry and how it works, it's not a thing of it's a well power or if you were just better, or I know sometimes parents will say, I raised you better. We throw all that out the window when a person is stuck in that cycle of sedation. So one of the first steps, this is the most difficult typically, is allowing the consequences to fall on that person. So we love them. We never withhold the love, but we don't enable with certain things. And that's usually one of the most difficult parts and why we'll see interventions come in. We'll do whatever we can to try to get that false bottom of absolute pain and consequence as quickly and heavy as possible to change that behavior. Because nobody typically, two to three weeks afterwards, once they're in our program, they start feeling better, they're thinking different. The actual physical part has started to heal a little bit now. And now we can get to the brain chemistry aspect. That is when they look and say, I'm so glad I couldn't do this on my own, even though I told everybody I hate you, get out of my life, I can't stand you. So that's the most painful part is allowing the consequences to fall on the person.

SPEAKER_00: 7:50

Yeah, I can imagine that's difficult because sometimes we feel like that if we don't help or enable that they can overdose, pass away, like something back can happen. What are some of the resources that you have for those family members that are trying to support their loved one?

SPEAKER_02: 8:06

So that's actually so I created an online self-paced family program years ago. Some families could hit pause on their life, come out here, work with our therapists and the individual. Some lived within the state. So the therapist was able to actually do family therapy that was out of the state. So we have case managers that can kind of help. So there's so many different nuances, but we would see the same questions again and again. And so that is why maybe three or four years ago, I finally put together it's a six-week self-paced online program that answers all the questions that most people have. It's what to look for as far as signs, because a lot of the times loved ones will say, Oh, now that I know this makes sense. Had I known this before, I would have started to see the signs, trust, how to build trust back up, how to hold healthy boundaries without withholding love. Like there's so many different aspects. And so a lot of the questions are similar. And so we put that together to help because community is really the antidote to addiction, because addiction really happens in isolation.

SPEAKER_00: 9:03

Yeah, that's very interesting. And so when someone goes through your program, how do you determine if they're gonna need treatment outside of the program?

SPEAKER_02: 9:13

Yeah, well, and that's what we see with most people. I mean, it's basic human behavior. A lot of people come in saying, I just want to detox, like I just want to feel better. Well, that's like if you get a cut and you just slap a band-aid on it, if there's bacteria in there, it's gonna continue to spread and grow no matter how fast that you got that band-aid put on. So it's not a thing of necessarily covering it up, it's a thing of actually opening up, you can call it the emotional, the spiritual wound, actually doing the work there, teaching the individuals how to do the work because it's not a one and done. One of the analogies I I like to use with people that don't understand addiction is think of it like diabetes. The body just does not create insulin. And you can have such a beautiful life if you regulate your insulin level. Sometimes it's one time a day, sometimes three, five. You have to give yourself an injection of insulin to bring your body chemistry back to that safe place. It's very similar with addiction. It's not a one and done. It's a let's get to the core issues, let's look at what trauma is actually leading to this. And then once you do the work, it's kind of like daily maintenance. It's, you know, no different than brushing your teeth every single day. I remember the dentist was great. He goes, No, only the ones you want to keep. You don't have to brush any of them. And I thought, oh, that's right, free will choice, right? And so as we do the daily work, and that's why I ended up writing a book years ago called The Recovery Way, it goes over the five foundational freedoms that really we look at. When I'm building a strong foundation, it gets difficult at first to build the foundation, but once that foundation is built, maintenance becomes so much easier. And then it it creates this beautiful life that that our our clients want to live and they don't want to sedate or retire from because what they're creating is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00: 10:50

And you keep mentioning the word trauma. So does exploring the root cause of the addiction help with long-term sobriety?

SPEAKER_02: 10:59

Yeah, well, that's one of the biggest things is nobody, nobody I've ever met used because life was absolutely perfect on every level. Usually there's something that happened in the past, either from childhood. And when you say trauma, most people think of something horrific. It doesn't have to be horrific to what society would say is horrific. If that individual labeled as a core memory and there's pain tied to it, and they continue to relive that again and again, that will help dictate the type of behavior that is showing up currently. And that leads to anxiety, depression, whatever it is. So as we look to help the client first identify what that traumatic event or events were, and then do the work behind that, that's how we're able to help them learn from this, but also start to look at life from a complete different standpoint that they don't want us a day to retire from just to repress or suppress either that memory or that emotion.

SPEAKER_00: 11:51

I often hear people say that you can live in the same home and have different experiences. So, what role does empathy play with the family members that's trying to support their loved one?

SPEAKER_02: 12:02

Yeah, well, community is a really big part. We emphasize that because when a person does have a family around them and they're learning and growing at the same time, we see wonderful results. But I do want to highlight on the other side, because we have clients that will come in that unfortunately they burnt all the bridges, they've torn the family apart, and the family is saying, we're even withholding love, we're not going to do this. And then that becomes this new blame to stay stuck in where they are. So it's kind of a double-edged sword. I don't want to say you have to have family backup, but at the same time, you don't. If you learn how to heal from within, and I call it take the war within. And when you're going to war with your triggers, your thoughts, your stories, your beliefs, really your identity, this is where the work happens that allows the individual to heal. From there, they're able to start to re-engage if they do want that relationship with their family, which most do. They're able to slowly but surely rebuild trust through behavior as opposed to instead of listen to what I say, don't look at what I do. It's no, no, watch what I do. And I'm no longer going to say these things because so often in our lives we have all these empty promises that the behavior shows so much different.

SPEAKER_00: 13:07

Yeah, I can definitely see it can be difficult if they burned bridges or if they took the family through a lot of ups and downs. What type of advice would you give them that's listening and they don't feel like it's a problem?

SPEAKER_02: 13:20

Yeah, most people, there's this false belief that you have to hit rock bottom to change. And what I've found, and most of our clients find, is rock bottom has a basement. Like there are trapdoors. So if we look at, well, I'm gonna let things get so painful until I have to change, that's kind of this old, maladaptive, outdated belief system that we have for survival. As we get healthier, we can look at how do I never go back to a rock bottom? Or the question that I ask as a litmus test is are you in love with life? Like, do you love how your life is? If it's a yes, then I would argue, why change anything? If there are zero or minimal consequences, then you don't have to change. But what we found is most people that are on the cusp that kind of think rock bottom must happen, as we start to look at this, we can bring the actual cost of opportunity is what we call it. So the cost of not getting better and how much worse life has to get before they make the change, as opposed to what if we started making these changes today, how much better life could get from here. And when they see how much worse it can get, how much better it can get, that's usually a lot of the time enough to start to change that decision to say, well, maybe I don't have to look at rock bottom anymore. If I just start looking at my relationship with alcohol or prescription medication or whatever the person is struggling with, that's where they can start making that change to get such a better life. Because really, at the end of the day, what we're all trying to do is self-medicate for state change. And if a person doesn't know how to do that in a healthy way with positive consequences, they turn to the cheap, easy, most effective way. And that has a huge cost on the back end.

SPEAKER_00: 14:58

So if someone's listening and they're like, I'm ready for help, what would be the next steps?

SPEAKER_02: 15:04

Yeah, next step would be to reach out either to us or someone else that they can start asking the questions that maybe they've been too embarrassed to, or guilt and shame usually have a huge part in addiction. And so being able to have a confidential conversation where they don't have to be afraid of anything to say, here's what I've done, here's what I'm thinking, here's my fears. And when we start to open up that door, the person finds they're not alone. That is one of the great things about AA and NA programs is when a person finally gets the courage to share, they share some of the most intimate secrets and they look around and everyone else is going, Oh yeah, me too, me too. And it's not what we thought. They look at us and go, You're a human being as well, and you've been living in pain, but we know what that's like. So a lot of times it just starts with a simple conversation of what does the next step look like? And we have a whole team from psychiatrists to doctors to case managers that are here to rally behind that person and teach them how to live a complete different life.

SPEAKER_00: 15:59

So they say it yes, they show up to your location. What would be like the first couple of days?

SPEAKER_02: 16:07

Well, it depends and it varies person by person. If they're coming in for detox, I would rather be really up front with a person to say, here's what to expect. And depending on what the drug is, detoxing sucks. There's no way around it. We do have comfort meds that will take some of that pain away, but there's no such thing as a painless change. It's like when you get a splinter, you know, you've got to get in there with a needle, and it hurts a little bit at first, but once you get it out, you feel that relief. Or you can say, I'm okay with the splinter and live your life with that constant numbing for the rest of your life. So we look at an initial spike in pain to get that resolution is so amazing at how it deals with whatever drugs or alcohol the person's been using. I mean, the body still blows my mind from the scientific standpoint of what it can do once we stop putting the poison in and allow it to, it starts to regenerate, rebuild different things. And it can take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks, depending on the length in the drug of choice. But once they get past that physical part, this is where I get really excited because this is the emotional, mental, and spiritual part. This is where the real work is done. So, first thing I'd say is because we see people from time to time, they'll come in for detox, they feel better and they go, Great, I'm checking out. And it's kind of like, no, we just took care of the physical, medical part. That's not what caused you to use in the first place. What caused you to use in the first place is the emotional, mental, and spiritual. That's where the work is done. So the first step is to make sure they're they're physically and medically cleared. Then we can get into the stories, the beliefs, the different things that we tell ourselves that really create the ongoing trauma and the issues and the pain. We found pain is a precursor to purpose. If I continue to cut off that pain, I never get the peace on the other side. But as I learn how to sit in that pain in a healthy way, without guilt or shame, to look at it for feedback and data, that is where the clients are able to experience the peace on the other side. And then once you find your purpose and whatever season you're in, life gets so fun again. And then getting back to that living a life that you don't want to ever sedate or retire from. And it's this beautiful transformation.

SPEAKER_00: 19:46

That is really good. And then a part of your program is holistic care. So when it comes to holistic care, what would be some of the things that you guys offer?

SPEAKER_02: 19:56

Well, we have several different therapists. So we're we're a small facility. I mean, it's we're mom and pop owned and operated, and we have a very high staff to client ratio. So we actually have four different therapists, four different case managers. So they're able to get in there, the treatment team, and to really help that person. And we use all different modalities. We're not like one modality, this is what it is. Our team will try one modality. If it works, great. If not, we'll do it differently. We'll keep going until we can find what really works to get to that core. We call it the core lie. When we can expose the core lie, that's where we can do the work and begin healing at that deep core area.

SPEAKER_00: 20:32

Yeah, I like that you guys are on a smaller side because you can get more of that one-on-one. Um, and so when it comes to you being in this industry for so long, where do you see the industry going the next five to six years?

SPEAKER_02: 20:46

So, one of the things I'm most excited about is you can see trends. So AI. So many people are talking AI, and we've been kind of messing with it for a while, which actually one of the things that I found, if I can share with your audience, I spent about a month or two of trying to figure out what is a prompt that, because everyone has like Claude or Chat GPT nowadays, but I'm like, what is a prompt where 24-7 a person can actually uncover the trigger that's causing all the issues that is leading to this continual addiction? And if they had somewhere they could go, now it doesn't replace a therapist. I don't want anyone to think that, but I found by leveraging AI with certain prompting, you can get it where it's actually able to listen and to help you see things. It's like holding up a mirror. It's like, oh, okay, what's going on? And it exposes blind spots that a lot of the times we're not aware of. It also uncovers other versions of a Story, meaning if I'm looking at something saying that shouldn't have happened, I'm arguing with reality. And what I've found is when I argue with reality, it doesn't care. I'm the one that gets hurt every time without fail. And so I created a prompt. And what I do is we have our clients go through it, but I'll offer it to your people as well if that's okay with you. It's just a Google document.

SPEAKER_00: 21:54

I'll make sure that I have it for them in the show description.

SPEAKER_02: 21:56

Okay. Yeah, you could put it there also. All they got to do is if they follow us on Instagram, our handle is at Pacific Shores Recovery. And then just DM me recovery prompt. And what I'll do is I will send them a direct link to that. We're not selling anything. They can go on, copy it, put it in their chat GPT. And it's amazing because as you mess with it, what we're seeing is it exposes these parts that a lot of the time we're not even aware of of where we're self-sabotaging. And a lot of the times, just by identifying the triggers and walking through this process, it helps open up different areas. And we're seeing a lot of beautiful things. So to answer your question, I'm most excited about how AI is coming in, also even predicting trends of a potential relapse. So before, you know, you get feedback from different people. And sometimes you see it, sometimes you don't, but we're starting to be able to track with the individual of what they say they're committed to, what their behavior is. And as they're checking in, you can start to see these are some of the things that in the past have taken other people off the path. So it's not a thing of you're going to, it's a thing of just saying, we just want you to be aware of this. And so just the just the way that AI can be leveraged for predictive patterns as well as support. It's like, it's like having a co-pilot in your, let's go ahead and get off the next exit, and we're right back on where we're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00: 23:12

That is so good that you are actually embracing AI. What made you decide to even try a prompt to help you with the treatment of your patients?

SPEAKER_02: 23:23

Well, I full transparency. I fought it for the first year. I'm like, no, this is just a trend. We don't want trends. We want what works, and we're all about foundations. And I started seeing a lot of things popping up. And then I started looking for us to try to find something because of HIPAA and the difficulty in the healthcare field. Nobody had this. And so that's where we're still working on something that is HIPAA compliant that a person can go through. So many people are afraid with liability and different aspects. I thought, well, what's a tool that's already out there that we don't own, but it just helps point them in the right direction. And every single client we talk to nowadays, even clients in their 40s, 50s, 60s, they're aware of what ChatGPT is. They're actually using it. And when we're saying, well, do you mind showing the history? What are you using it for? You're like, oh my gosh, it's a wonderful tool, but if you're not using it right, it can hurt you. So as I started seeing this, I thought, there's so much wealth of knowledge. I just read an article the other day that says in ChatGPT, it has a third of human knowledge of all time. Imagine in your pocket, you have access to a third of all human knowledge. That blows me away. And so understanding how to use it effectively, not a thing that just gives you that, like you got to train your Chat GPT that it just doesn't say, oh, you're the best, you're brilliant. There's prompts that you can do to eradicate that, but of actually holding up a mirror and saying, What am I not seeing? I notice this is what causes me to drink after a long day or to use Xanax or whatever it is. And that's where we're starting to see of, yeah, we've got therapists, we've got all these people here that really dive in, but they can't be with them 24-7. What if we could actually give it some of the information with correct prompting that could lead the person through of actually working through some of the issues because emotions pass? We tend to, we tend to believe it with everything we are that it is true because it feels true. But we can have someone to the right of us with a complete different emotional state, watching the same thing than us and get complete different data and feedback than we do. Well, who's right? Because they're both doing the same thing at the same time. So as we understand this, we can look at are these emotions serving me? And how do I turn emotions and or feelings into feedback as opposed to this is truth, therefore I can't do this.

SPEAKER_00: 25:39

Yeah, I can imagine that when a person is going through recovery, well, even if we're going through anything in life, it can be an emotional roller coaster. And so when it comes to the emotional standpoint, what type of strategies do you help people deal with their mindset as they're on their journey?

SPEAKER_02: 25:56

One of the sayings I like to tell people is you got to feel to heal. Most addiction stems from not wanting to feel. So we cut off that process. And when we cut off that process, we go right back to where we were before. And so it's this cycle of chaos that we find ourselves in of going, well, life sucks. If this all there is, and when we look at that, say, yeah, because we're not allowing the full transition. Again, pain is not supposed to be a prison. It's supposed to be feedback of how to change what to change. So as we learn to actually process the pain, to not necessarily attach negative meaning to it, because I mean, here's the truth. Nobody's died from an emotion or a feeling. Now, we've shared this one time and a client argued back, and I love it. I said, Well, tell me, well, but what about those that commit suicide? And I say, you know what? That's not the emotion. The emotion causes them to take an action, to no longer have to deal with the emotion. So we're not saying sit in the pit of pain and just sit there of like, oh, this sucks. I'm going to sit in it. But of looking, everything, like the way that we were created, there's positive intention behind everything. There's an unmet need. When I don't know how to meet that need, or a lot of times I don't even know what that need is, I will numb and sedate. But as soon as something comes up by understanding what is the positive intention behind this. So, like, like for me, I battled depression. But when I used to stuff it, it worked, but it kept coming back with a vengeance. Eventually, I had to learn how to say, let me sit in this pain where, like a sadomasochist away, but of actually sitting in and saying, There's got to be a lesson here I'm not seeing. And actually having a conversation. This is where I lose some people, having a conversation with that part of you. So for me, my depression's name is Hal. Total different story how it got that name. But of sitting there and saying, Hal, what is it you're wanting me to know? And I used to sedate it, numb it, stuff it. But eventually, once I sat in that pit of pain and said, What is it you're wanting me me to know? He said, You've mislabeled me. Like you've I'm like the black sheep of the family, the outcast. And I got this vision one day where Hal said, I look in, there's this beautiful window, and I can see inside your house. And I see this wonderful table with all these emotions. I see laughter and joy and fulfillment and beauty. And I'm outside, not allowed in. I just want a seat at the table to get to enjoy everyone. And I thought, oh my gosh, I've spent my entire life stuffing depression, never giving it a voice. Well, we all know what happens when you continue to ignore your child, they will get louder and louder and eventually start throwing stuff at you until you go, sweetie, what is it? I haven't been listening. And when you're fully there and present, a lot of times just, I just wanted you to watch this, watch this. And they do it. You're like, oh, that's wonderful. And then they go on and do their own stuff. So by utilizing this for our emotions, we're able to find a lot of times they just want to see at the table and to know you love them. And so this was kind of my aha moment years ago. I had a breakthrough moment where I'm like, I never thanked you. I thought you were trying to kill me. You were actually trying to protect me, and you did protect me from a lot of horrific stuff that happened. I never thanked you. And it was amazing. Once I had that relationship change, it turned to this beautiful thing. Where, again, this might lose some people, but I'm like, I'm able to enjoy my depression now. I'm able to say, like, thank you. I see you. This is a safe place. I want you to know you can come to me anytime, and I'm here to love you. And what's amazing is all that darkness and heaviness left. And now it's just this just checking in from time to time. It happens two to three times a year. Like, amen, do I still got that seat at the table? Absolutely. Goes, cool. I just want to make sure I'm still safe with you. And then it goes on. And then joy comes back out, and all these beautiful emotions. I'm like, wow, this the work actually works. This is what I want the world to know. Because when you learn to live this way, you don't ever want to sedate. You don't want to go back to the pain cycle, the pain loop.

SPEAKER_00: 29:47

Yeah, I don't think you're going to lose people. I think you're actually going to help people because when it comes to anxiety or depression, people think that they have to rid themselves of it. I don't think they try to find strategies to help them live through it. So, how has your perspective on healing evolved over time as you have had the wonderful opportunity to work on with people at Pacific shores?

SPEAKER_02: 30:11

So I used to look at failure as a label and my identity. So I tried to avoid it at all costs. And one of the things that I've learned over the years is failure is feedback. So we look to fail here all the time so we can learn what works, what doesn't work, why it didn't work, why is this client thriving? This client is still kind of in that hesitation phase. And so one of the biggest things that changed was actually welcoming and wanting failure as opposed to trying to overcome it or just sit there and kind of ignore it. I mean, feedback is so valuable. It's why people go to therapy. It's why people go to school. It's why it's like everything we do, we want to shorten the feedback cycle and we get feedback and we can apply it. What if that is the whole point of life? To continually expand to this ideal version of who we can become, knowing we're never going to reach the ideal version, but what a beautiful journey of continuing to just chase that version of us down, knowing I'm already that version. I just want to continue to expand and create.

SPEAKER_00: 31:18

So if someone is listening and they're like, okay, the getting sober is hard in itself, but now you're saying I have to be vulnerable. What is some advice that you can give them to take their first step?

SPEAKER_02: 31:31

So here's a hack I learned a while ago that changed everything for me. I didn't understand that my stories, my internal narrative, my beliefs, my identity, I held within me. And so anytime someone would challenge a thought or a story, I wasn't able to see them challenging the thought or story. I saw them as attacking me. If I take all the stories, the beliefs, the thoughts, and I just temporarily suspend it, I can bring it right back. But if I can temporarily suspend it and bring it out here, now we can challenge this together. Now we can say, is this story serving me? Like one of the greatest analogies I love is I don't even know what version this is. I think it's like the iPhone 14. But one of the things I'll ask our clients is, how many of you remember when Steve Jobs released the very first iPhone? It was like early 2000s. Everybody always raised their hands. I said, remember it changed the world. Like everybody was like, wait, what? The whole world changed after that. And now I don't know anyone that doesn't have a smartphone. Most have the Apple, some have Galaxy. But I say, how many of you still have that first iPhone? And I still have yet to ever have a person raise their hand. I say, well, why? And they come up with the answer to say, well, it's no longer supported. It's outdated. A lot of our times, our stories, our thoughts and our beliefs that maybe kept us safe or were revolutionary back when we were younger, they may have become outdated and no longer supported. But nobody told us or gave us permission we're looking for to say, what if we challenged this and brought it out and made it a thing of software? Now, since it's no longer my identity and inside me, I pull it out. We can question it. It has nothing to do with me. Then we can look and either say, nope, I'm throwing this old story out. Or if you go, nope, I love this old story, you can still now put it back in and go, now it's back to my identity. And just that one little change was enough for my brain to say, they're not attacking me. They're actually helping me attack stories, thoughts, beliefs. And this is the part that keeps me imprisoned with whatever it is that I'm struggling with, whether it's addiction, thought process, problems. I mean, you want to talk about the real addiction? People are addicted to their problems. Once we understand this, it's kind of like, I don't want a life of no problems. That means I'm no longer here. Life is all about beautiful problems. How do I get bigger problems that don't tank me that I can look at and continually fail, get the feedback, iterate, and continue to grow? Then that's where it gets really fun. And why we see our clients, we'll do a one-year follow-up, a three-year, five-year, we just did a 20-year follow-up, and they're thriving. Why? Because they upgraded their software to bigger problems and they don't see problems as failures, but continual iteration. And now they're building beautiful things. And we say, Well, don't you struggle with addiction? Not anymore. Like, I don't want to go back to that. This is way too exciting. So that's really at the end of the day what we're looking to do is to create such excitement around healing and then continual creation that we don't ever want to go back and use that old vehicle that's outdated to change our states.

SPEAKER_00: 34:24

I really like that. And I also like just listening to you speak, your organization seems so innovative. So, what made you guys decide that you wanted to look at the person as a whole and not just the addiction behavior?

SPEAKER_02: 34:38

To be totally honest, ignorance. When we first started, we just wanted to help people. We didn't really know exactly what we were doing. We started as a sober living. So people were leaving other treatment centers coming to us. And my ignorance was they're cured. This is wonderful. And then we started seeing all these issues coming up. Fortunately, I had some great professors in college that allowed me to ask the dumbest questions and would answer my questions. What I've learned is if I have a question I don't understand, I'm responsible for me in this life. I want to make sure I get it. And so that's carried over and worked very well to the point where so many other places and experts in the field were telling us for the first probably decade, you're doing it wrong. You're not doing it right. You need to look at the addiction, you need to do this. And I we continue to look and go, that seems more like a symptom. I still have not met a person that loves, like, if you go to a kid and you give them alcohol, they don't be like, oh, this is so yummy. They spit it out and go, Oh my gosh, like you have to teach yourself how to love that. So when we look at it from that way, we're able to really take a step back. And so as we look at that core lie is what we call it, and we do the actual work in here, that's where an organic byproduct is, is they don't want to use or sedate. And so the reason why I said ignorance is we didn't know how to do it. And because we're ignorant, we didn't do it the way everyone else did. And so as they challenged us and told us we're doing it wrong, we're like, well, I don't, I don't know, the results seem to be okay. So let's keep going all in on this. And after 10 years, 12 years, 15 years, like, why don't you get really good results? This is pretty cool. Like I get phone calls and emails and and letters from people that are just thriving now. And what's funny is a lot of the people now reach out and say, hey, what is it that you do? It seems to be working. Will you teach us and now actually help other people? We've helped other places open up their centers and and kind of copy what works. And it's just been this whole cool, like full cycle moment.

SPEAKER_00: 36:30

I am so glad that you guys did not allow those that were in the industry to deter you because it's working and it's working really well. If someone's listening, what would be a simple habit or a practice that you believe they can try to start their journey to living a healthier life?

SPEAKER_02: 36:49

So I go about the actually, I have it right here. That's why I wrote the book. After years and years, it's called The Recovery Away. You can get on Amazon. So many clients would say, Man, I wish there was a book I could have read. It's called The Five Foundational Freedoms. There's really five areas of life that we're all looking to gain, I'll call it an illusion of control over or get some form of fulfillment. We started seeing, and I just, again, I asked the dumb questions. So I would see after thousands and thousands and thousands of clients come through our doors, I would call them back and look to see, well, what are you doing? You seem to be flourishing aware. Someone else came through around the same time and they're struggling. Like, I don't get it. They have the same case manager, the same therapist. Like, what am I missing? And what I started to see is that's how I saw these five different foundations. People were working a little bit in each of these five foundations that were thriving. Others were either doing none or going all in on one. Like a lot of times, fitness is one of the foundations, aka health. We see some people go all in on health, being the best physical shape of their life, but they're missing the other four and they're still actively using and struggling. And so we call it first fruits every single day. I call it healthy selfish. It's what do they say? Like when you're flying, when they if they say, hey, if something happens and you're traveling with all your family, make sure you get that oxygen on it. They don't say that because if I don't take care of myself, I can't help anybody else. It's let me take care of me first, get my oxygen on. Now I can go help as many people as I can. So we call it healthy selfish. So there's five different things every single morning. The fitness part is doing something to move and to sweat. Most people say, Well, I don't like working out. You're not doing it necessarily for the vanity, although that part's kind of cool too. Like it's great having high energy, all these different things. But there's a brain chemistry part that the way we are created, when we actually move and sweat like we're supposed to, as opposed to just sitting in a single space or scrolling, when we get out in nature, first we get vitamin D from the sun. It actually hits circadian rhythms within us. It hits these different parts, goes to the back of our iris, hits the brain, there's all sorts of cool stuff. But we start to release different brain chemistry when we move. It's the feel-good stuff like serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin, all these different things that our bodies are supposed to have in us. This is why so many times we'll see people come in on all the different types of medication. And it's kind of like, oh man, no wonder you feel numb. Like you are medically numbing yourself. What if we teach you how to feel these different emotions, how to work out so the brain chemistry can actually help regulate? And so again, I want people to take this out of context and stop using their medication. Do not take this out of context. I'm trying to get as much information to the masses as possible, but that's just one of the things. The other one is faith. And when I say faith, most people go, Oh, is it going to say the God thing? Well, yeah, I'm going to say God, but it doesn't necessarily have to be like we have all types of religions coming through here. There's a part of us when I am the center of my universe, I become so isolated and selfish and miserable. When I look at myself as a part of something greater and want to serve, again, this goes back to the scientific part, but there's a part of the brain that they've linked to religion or spiritual awareness. And when that lights up, we feel different. Our body releases different chemicals. So I call it personally for me, it's communion with Christ, actually spending time each day in solitude. No TV, no music, no scrolling, of just learning to sit in the silence and how to be comfortable in that. That was one of the most difficult things. But again, we started to see the clients that were thriving knew how to sit in silence, knew how to let their brain just kind of go and not believe everything that comes up from it. And then there's a lot more. I won't go into all of them, but if you get the book, it's all in there and it shows what's called first fruits or the five to thrive of really this morning habitual routine that gets you just on fire for who you are. And then you get to live the days you desire.

SPEAKER_00: 40:40

I'm gonna order that book because that sounds very interesting and good. So as we wrap up, what is one message or a piece of advice that you want to leave with listeners who may be navigating their own journey of recovery?

SPEAKER_02: 40:52

One of the biggest pieces that comes to mind is guilt and shame are tools for darkness. And that unfortunately it creates this lie from within that what I'm going through, I have to go alone, nobody will understand. And unfortunately, it keeps people suffering in silence. So the message that I leave is find somebody that you can trust or a complete stranger, but to learn to share free of guilt or shame. Because even just that simple part of just one repetition of saying something out loud or shouting it from the mountaintop, it really doesn't matter, but of getting it from in here, like this toxicity and getting it out. All of a sudden, I'm still here. My worst case scenario didn't happen. And I'm able to say, okay, that felt a little bit better. Now, if I continue to share, will this continue? And then that's what opens the door for the help. And you don't have to go it alone.

SPEAKER_00: 41:50

Thank you for saying that. Because guilt and shame can have us in imaginary handcuffs. So thank you for sharing that. And again, I will make sure that I have all of your contact information in the description of this episode.

SPEAKER_02: 42:02

Thank you, Doctor. I appreciate it. It's been great getting to go back and forth with you and just get to share what I'm passionate, what my purpose of this life is. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 42:11

You are so welcome. Is there anything that we did not mention that you are eager to share?

SPEAKER_02: 42:16

Well, the only thing is if someone wants to continue the conversation, I do have a team here, but also I love just jumping on Instagram and just direct messaging anyone that has questions or that are in these places because I had enough people in my life that believed in me that helped me see life from a complete different aspect to go from a place of depression. Like I was suicidal out of college. And to think that that version of me fortunately stayed in the game long enough to become who I am today and now get to do the impact I get to do. It's like this is the coolest thing in the world, but I wouldn't have known that back then. So if you're struggling with something, you want to chat, just shoot us a DM and I'd be more than happy to keep chatting with you.

SPEAKER_00: 42:55

Thank you so much for even sharing that because I know sometimes, especially when it comes to suicide or suicide ideologies, most people are very embarrassed by it, but there is no shame. And so please reach out. And you said that Instagram was at Pacific Shores Recovery.

SPEAKER_02: 43:09

Yeah, at Pacific Shores Recovery. And yeah, that's the other thing too, is uh about two years ago I started volunteering at a crisis center. And it is incredible. Again, just seeing the data that that's coming out and it's getting younger and younger of pictures and hopelessness. And at the end of the day, the individuals that I talk with, nobody wants to die, but they just don't know, they they don't see a version of life without pain. And I am literally a living, walking example of if you stay in the game long enough, it gets so beautiful. And you can do the type of work that we talk about here in the book. If it is addiction related, why we have a recovery center here. But the biggest thing is you don't have to go it alone. And that once you find and uncover what's causing that pain and you actually do the work, everything changes. And then it's no longer a hopeless life. It is so much hope. And then you start doing stuff that you couldn't even dream of. Like I get paid to help people now. How crazy is that? It took courage to learn how to help myself and then to heal. And then now I get to help other people. It's just this life just gets so dang good.

SPEAKER_00: 44:11

That is amazing. So if you are listening, you have a new ally in Mark. So please make sure that you reach out to him. No guilt, no shame, no judgment. Just someone that is here to help you to start your journey to recovery, a journey to a healthy life. So again, Mark, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01: 44:31

Thanks for listening. Please rate this episode and share it with your family and friends. To learn more about your host or to book a coaching session, visit www.brooksdeming.com. Until next time, rise.